Thursday, February 26, 2009

Julia: 28? Or 12?

A tiresome Tweet from a child:


When was the last time any of you, as grown adults, even entertained a similar thought? Maybe the day before a milestone birthday, like 30 or 40, you might think to yourself: "Hmm. Tomorrow at this time I will have kissed my 20s good-bye forever."


Jackles: You're not in middle school anymore.


  1. Just be glad she doesn't give her age in months.

  2. She just wants to remind her critics that she isn't 36 after all. And she is horribly childish. See? 2 birds with one stone people!

  3. Wash DC dipshit or shitty DC intern you decide:

  4. Quoting the Pink Lady:

    @EllyBenson: "When I first heard about twitter I was under the impression that it was meant for stalking celebrities." Me: "Well, it is."


    *Real* celebs don't use that thing -- save the Punk'd fellow and his wife.

    What an idiot Jackles is.

  5. Um, I have thought that before I turned 24, 25 etc. Is this really something to post at?!

    Also, look at the TMI which started the JA and MR "fight". If someone made me wear that I would probably be a super bitch too. It is hein.

  6. Thanks for the link Geek Boy Toy! These "Old Face" pictures are really funny aren't they? Can we start some sort of gallery of Julia Old Face pictures? I mean "old" year wise, not age wise. Her face now looks old age wise, and not in the good "look how much wisdom I've gained" way. Lady Jackles looks HAGGARD. And how sad it is that she has to run around frantically planning her OWN party. Sigh. Don't your friends usually throw parties for you? Oh wait...she doesn't have any friends and has been relegated to staying in Meghan's pool house. HA. She's also been silent on Randi Suckerberg - did her spongetastic friend ditch her for the birthday celebrations?

  7. jesus h. christ, could she shut-up about her birthday already?!

  8. Something I'm now suddenly and randomly wondering having read such a silly tweet:

    Has Julia ever met the original lifecaster star, Justine Eznick( Does she aspire to be like her or is Meghan the only one seriously lusting to be her?
    Because that chick just happens to be gorgeous, extremely successful and knowledgeable with her business and carries herself with more humor, grace and professionalism than any of the NS girls could ever dream of aspiring to and yet she's only 25.

    I don't know why I just compared Justine to the rest of these sad NS ladies, but I guess it's because Julia acts like such a complete spazz compared to that girl.

  9. Excuse me, her name is Justine Ezarick. The girl Julia desperately wishes she could be.

  10. look at the pic she posted on the floor. you can still see the swelling at the botox injection site. notice mid forhead above each brow and at the top middle. there may be some other ones but those are the clearest. she doesnt have the front lighting of her bedroom so they show more here.

  11. Honestly? I make a bit of a deal about my birthday every year - BUT ONLY WITH MY IMMEDIATE FAMILY AND A CLOSE FRIEND.

    I don't have insipid theme parties. Hell, I don't even have real parties for my birthday, just dinner at a nice restaurant with a very few close relatives - a dinner which we pay for ourselves (no "donations" at the door!).

  12. Is Julia Baugher finally losing it? (that's a rhetorical question) She's been banished to Meghan's pool house, is trying to throw together her own party the day before it's supposed to happen (without Randi? No mention of her since landing in SF) and is crazily twittering about turing the ripe old age of 28 as if she's turning 50... all at nearly 7 a.m. (or 4 a.m. if her time stamp is still east coast). Julia, want to know why you're not even 30 but you look like you're pushing 40? Staying up until dawn feeding your internet addiction is doing you no favors, Manic One.

  13. What pic on the floor?

  14. THIS pic on the floor:

    I'm surprised she even posted it...she looks absolutely shiteous!!!
    Even worse, she's posted old pics of her partying with Randi. Back when she still looked somewhat normal and youthful.

  15. So commenters above question Ranid's involvement in the party and suddenly Randi pictures pop up on her blog? Sure Julia doesn't read over here. She's also up at 6:00 - probably from the night before. Who does that?!?! How can she function with such fucked up sleep patterns? Or is that why she's so dysfunctional?

    And for anyone who want's to pay their $10 cover charge and report back here with a first person account of the sad little party, here the birthday party details:

    Friday, February 27
    8:00 p.m.
    San Francisco

  16. Hey JA,

    Where are your Dad's pcis from his visit?

    AS its all about Daddy revenue

  17. when people do cover charges for donations they usually offer something.examples:

    3 course dinner catered by Wolfgang Puck

    concert by a popular act

    raffle for a big prize, like a car or vacation

    i have never heard of someone charging for a 'birthday party'. that is really tacky, your charging for people to see you. let her dad, mom, friends, family, *everyone she would expect a gift from* instead of giving her a gift, give her a card that say's a donation has been made in your name for blahblahblah.

    oh, i can hear it now

    "WHAT!?!?!? NO $500 DRESS?!?!? f**K you?!?!?!"

  18. I just turned 35 (horrified to realize that I share a birthday month and an astrological sign with JAB) arguably more of a milestone than 28. Here is how I spent my bday: hanging out with my 3 children (all of them under 4), and then sharing Chinese takeout with my husband when he got home. No pink dresses, no cross-country plane trips, no f*cking juvenile parties. JAB, please grow up!!! By the way, I spent my 28th birthday hanging out with my brother and friends in various NYC bars. Again, no FUSS! Guess what, JAB: everyone has a goddamned birthday.

  19. I spent my 23rd birthday at work. Because I have a real job. In an office. With a legit company. Whose owner doesn't depend on his Dad for money. Just saying.

  20. Hi readers!!!!! Are you up as early as me? I am once again blogging about HAPPINESS. HAPPY! HAPPY! HAPPY! What does happiness mean to you, my dozens of readers? I always think of the meaning of HAPPINESS around my birthday, because aging makes me feel icky and frowny face because I am no longer a pretty pretty princess and each year it gets more and more inappropriate to act like a pretty pretty princess. Speaking of pretty pretty princesses, I am still searching for my princess ball gown and my prince charming for my pretty pretty princess party. PINK! PINK! PINK! PRETTY! PRETTY! HAPPY! SO HAPPY! PRINCESS! I AM PRINCESS HAPPYCAKES IN THE KINGDOM OF PINK!

  21. I think the donations from the party go to a charity.

  22. Asking for donations is still incredibly gauche. There are places, events and occasions to throw charity parties. A themed birthday party you're planning for yourself where YOU are the main attraction is not one of them.

  23. Does anyone else think her lips in the last few pictures with Randi Zuckerberg look a little unnatural? Something about them looks like she had fillers put in.

  24. Well, if someone was dumb enough to shell out over $550 to hang with the NS girls for one night, I suppose anything is possible. Therefore I suppose 10 bucks to see JA must be such a steal in HER deluded mind!
    I agree that it's in terrible taste to create a cover charge for your own birthday party.
    At least offer drink/dinner specials if that's the case, or better yet, make it a "suggested donation" or simply allow guests to give donations to that cause INSTEAD OF BIRTHDAY GIFTS.
    I had a friend do that for his birthday party at a club last year and I thought it was an extremely thoughtful and classy thing to do.
    Julia expects donations AND gifts on her special day though, being the shameless beggar that she is.

  25. Julia looks unnatural in ALL of her pictures - VERY shiny, oily skin and hair and just generally waxy and weird looking. She photoshops the hell out of her wonky botox eye... you'd think she'd also correct her greasy hair and oily skin.

  26. A second dispatch from Julia's Brain just came in:

    I MISS MY PINK LIGHTBULBS!!! Damn that lighting in Meghan's pool house, anyway. Me no look good.

  27. If anyone wants to be contributor on a reblog of this site and the regular commenters and contributors, email me at

    Not asking you to be a JA fan, just have a bad taste in your mouth over the pathetic nature that is this site.

    I refuse to do it by myself because then I am no better than Jacy...who clearly either doesn't have a job or doens't have a life. Discuss.

  28. Now, hold on a minute...I enjoy a good laugh at Julia's expense, but I draw the line at birthday party bashing.

    There is nothing wrong with having a birthday is the one day of the year that most of us (not Julia) get to focus on ourselves.

  29. ok this is totally my name i call it! and any varriation including


  30. Auntie Social:

    Her face looks like a mask now. A year ago she didn't look like this.

    I wonder what goes on inside her head when she gets fillers and botox.

  31. Anony 11:17 -- let be the first to suggest you are not only a hypocrite but a lazy hypocrite.

    Suck on that.

  32. Please do not feed the trolls.

  33. Anon 11:17 - Just so we're clear, you think that this site (and by extension it's readers) are pathetic for complaining about another person's site, so you're going to start your own site to complain about the complainers? My math was never very good, but I believe that is doubly pathetic. Oh, no, wait...I forgot to carry the loser in the fifth column. It's pathetic squared.

    I hope you have a lovely day!

  34. anon 11:17 wait a minute, wait a minute, re-wind.

    you want to reblog a reblog site and your asking people to contact you on the reblog with an email you made for the reblogging of the reblog site so you can reblog it?

    ...and your accusing anyone else of not having a job?


    Unmoving forehead and upper lip
    Photoshopped wonk eye
    Bizarrely plump lips without her puckering

    Congrats Jackles, you look like a neanderthal!

  36. @Princess Happycakes 11:23 - Ha! Sorry, was typing my Princess Happycakes 11:28 entry when you posted. The name is yours.

    @The Zookeeper: Right you are.


  38. Anon 11:17 is a lazy hypocrite? Hmm.... who does that remind me of? Lazy hypocrite. Who else do we know that's a lazy hypocrite? I won't give you the answer right away, but I will give you a hint - it rhymes with Ghoulia Gallison.

  39. anon 11:17 is that the new Ja email addy she is using to tip valleywag?

    Hey JA show some guts and sign in with your real name Miss Baugher

  40. headbands, sorry i was writing before that posted. lol

  41. erik- those lips are definitely filled. whenever JA shows pictures of herself from her early 20s, her lips are extremely thin compared to the present.

  42. auntie social: is it Stoolia Baliston?

    ooh! ooh! do i win a prize?!!

  43. @Princess Happycakes: You win a vegan cookie and a video of Mary's last colonic.

  44. you know sometimes they use ass fat to fill in lips..what does that make JA? :)

  45. i was really hoping for a

    cranberry spinach cookbook


  46. AuntieSocial -- you do remember that reblog of the original Reblogging Julia ( The NS nitwits were clearly behind that (Mary's illiteracy can't be faked) Pattern? Nah! Anyhoo. My policy is one comment per troll (i secretly think trolls are a missing element of the visual cultural lexicon and just like saying/seeing it in my mind: TROLLS, TROLLS, TROLLS! What was i saying?) -- but in light of your comment, i thought this element of the WACKY NS HIJUNX needed repeating.


  47. anon 11:17 --

    srsly, who would want to read that? sheryl spencer (ja's biggest fan) has vanished and allison whatshername is all but gone too.

    the haters have taken over. deal with it, poofy.

  48. Thank God JA did not reproduce

  49. Hey 11:17, I seem to remember when MR (or was it JA? same diff) tried to reblog Reblogging Julia? But the caliber of the writing was such that it just brought attention to how bad their rereblogging writing was so they just let it die?

    Well, good luck with that. You're going to need it!

  50. @SomeProblems:

    I owe you a Coke.

    --11:57 anon.

  51. hmm you can find pics of Ja drinking when she was a minor..why I am I not surprised?

  52. The problem with JA's lifecast is that it is boring because she is boring. JA is boring because her life is not about anything meaningful. Well - maybe it is but you can't tell that from what I have read on her site. It is not interesting to read or I'm almost 28!!!! or look at picture upon picture of someone posing. I just don't get it. I don't understand how anyone outside of close friends would want to watch a lipdub of anyone (except at the end of Bring It On, ok.) because - again - boring. Further, taking dating advice from a person that makes it public knowledge that the majority of her ex's hate her is not logical.

  53. Don't you people have jobs or something?

  54. Dear Paul/Julia --

    Please come up with another retort. This one is getting boring.


  55. Paul=Julia

    Show us some class with the GT degree with bigger words please

  56. Um, yeah, Paul, I do. How about you?

    You seem to keep up with everything here just fine? My boss (yeah, I have one of those--it's a *real* job) knows I bust ass 99.9% of the day, so it's cool for me to check in here now and then for a soap opera break.

    We all need a little levity now and then. Why you stop in cluck-cluck at us makes no sense. But suit yourself.

  57. If the zoo patrons continue to feed the trolls, they will be escorted to the reptile house and asked to stay there until closing time. The trolls are very hungry but they are only allowed to be fed pink cupcakes at 6:00 a.m. when no one is looking.

  58. Seriously, don't you all have a life or at least something better to do? You criticize JA for not having one, but look at you. Pathetic much?
    Leave the girl alone!

    Oh, and the stench of jealousy in the blog is getting overwhelming.

  59. Let's not engage this troll -- she looks scary.

  60. Sorry, zoo patrons. That overwhelming stench you smell is coming from the troll cage. I haven't cleaned it all week because I am a pathetic loser with no job. Well, my only job is that of a lowly zookeeper but other than that I really have no job or a life. Won't you please give me a job and a "life" so I can be as fabulous as Julia? Pretty please?

  61. Miss Matched has a disorder. It would probably be best if we didn't utter one negative word about her appearance.

    But I do have this theory... those who support JA and cry "JEALOUSY!" are those who are *really* jealous and envious of the lives JA and the rest lead. Allison and Sheryl's creeds began with them saying how much they used to admire and envy these girls' lives... until they realized how fake they were. Whereas I have always found them vile and have found relief in this website.

  62. People making fun of a girl with no job and no life automatically also have no job and no life and are jealous of a girl with no job and no life? My mind just collapsed from the meta-ness.

  63. FormerGawkerEmployeeFebruary 26, 2009 at 12:33 PM

    It's funny how the "Reblogging the Reblogger" call-out for contributors comes right around the same time as JA is posting to her blog. So do appearances from "Paul."

    Oh Jackles. Remember how well the reblogging of Baugher went? It was a flat, boring disaster that no one read and Baugher totally ignored.

    And that is exactly what will happen with this attempt. Sad though, isn't it, that you don't have enough fans to find them on your own ... you have to come here to try to find people to help you? Couldn't David Karp help you out this time?

  64. If JA's party is at Slide, I have a theory about the $10 "donation" -

    Slide is one of the more popular clubs in SF and ALWAYS charges a cover. Unless you're going to spend tens of thousands of dollars to rent out the entire club for a night, you probably just reserved a table with bottle service minimum of $2000. So that means, while your friends may have a table/area that is definitely for your party, you still have to pay a cover to get in. And I think she somehow thinks that the cover can become a "donation to charity."

    Plus Slide is like douche central.

  65. Anony 12:29 -- total agreement on all counts.

    I like to feel proud of my own achievements b/c i have accomplished them on my own. I don't want to ride for free. I want to pay for my own ticket in full with the money i earn myself.

    This to me is achievement -- not flying around on some married guy's plane because i know someone. That is gross and flat and empty. It can only not feel utterly empty (i think it might anyway) if you are already a part of that class because of something you have achieved.

    I feel nothing put pity and contempt for Jackles and her ilk. She is sad and pathetic and has nothing i want.

    FormerGawkerEmployee: I could not agree more. This cry, excuse me, bray, for help is clearly Jackles.

    Jackles: No one cares about your sad rereblog, ok?

  66. miss matched/ Paul
    A challenge: let's race for pink slips.
    If either of you can successfully argue one of the following, I will leave rbns, never to return, and will cease and desist all public criticism of nonsociety. I will not refute your arguments, either. It's all you. All you have to do is make logical sense.
    If you can't, you leave.
    I nominate dyseptic as judge (because s/he has been bipartisan a couple times)
    Pick one:
    1. NS should not be attacked so much because they are harmless fun who do not perpetuate female stereotypes.
    2. NS's journalistic integrity should not be attacked because despite a slightly new digital form, ns upholds etsablished standards of ethics.
    3. It's okay to take free products and services in exchange for placement on ns as long as they mention that fact every once and awhile.
    Any takers?

  67. jealousy jealousy, no life no life, no job, no job, pathetic, pathetic.. did I miss any?

    Sorry missmatch, I would not wish a day in JAs life on my worst enemy, to be perfectly honest. I feel bad for people whose entire lives revolve around being and/or trying to be something they aren't. People don't have to hate Julia to be here, nor must their lives or activities be limited by the minimal time spent here commenting on banality.

    All the same, when in doubt, pull one hasty generalization out of the magic bag, because the ruthless internet at large WILL care! Fer sureee!

    The stench will only get stronger so long as Julia remains Julia, so try not to let the door hit you.

  68. Sigh. Okay, tough love time for Miss Match, et al. Julia is not going to see you defend her over here, take you to lunch, and then be your bestest friend in the whole wide world. It's not going to happen.

    You may be sad or lonely and believe the (formerly) pretty girl when she brays about How. Nice. She. Is. You may think that all she needs is someone to understand her. You may even believe that she will be grateful that someone sees the True Julia (TM) and challenges the "haters." It's not going to happen.

    Julia doesn't care about you. Unless you're wealthy and influential. Are you wealthy and influential? No? Well, she doesn't care about you and she never will. It's not going to happen.

    If you find yourself reaching for the Kool-Aid, just repeat after me: It. Is. Not. Going. To. Happen.

  69. And really, it isn't fair to project your feelings (jealousy of the trio) on the rest of the commenters because you don't relate or share the same opinion. At some point you wanted to be a contributor to the site (how did that work out, btw?). Clearly that willingness to be part of something of this caliber is telling in and of itself.

  70. What? Mismatched wanted to be a contributor to NS?

  71. Okay, not to burst anyone's bubble here, but I think we can all agree that unless you are reasonably attractive/fashionable, slim, under age 35, rich/pretend-rich, have connections, live/work in Manhattan, and are marginally intelligent/talented, you can be a NS contributor. Otherwise, don't kid yourself.

    Thus I really hope that comment about MissMatched wanting to once be a NS contributor is false, or else she's every bit as delusional as the NS ladies themselves.

    Btw, why does everyone assume that just because some of us stop off here to snark on NS/Julia that we must not have lives/jobs/partners/etc?

  72. Apparently Julia said she LOVES Miss Match and we all know that the Poofy One is not given to hyperbole. Nope, not at all.

  73. Thanks for everyone who has responded!

  74. Yes, I'm a freelance writer and queried Julia about writing for NonSociety.

    My point: The girl is just living her life. You say she doesn't deserve all the attention, but isn't this blog just fueling that very thing?

  75. I had to search high and low to find this post, but it was in "Inappropriate Indeed". I knew after clicking on the Blogger profile that I'd seen the photo somewhere before.

    The comment made was this:

    " - Julia wanted contributors right? You'd think she'd respond to this/take it seriously"

    Same person as MissMatched, and inquiring minds DO wanna know, what happened with that? Or did JA ignore your twitter and email completely?

    Also, no need to thank yourself 2:55. Best of luck with your endeavor though, I'm serious.

  76. @RB.RBNS: Bunny, those responses are all from the voices in your head, just like the reader e-mails Julia posts.

  77. Oh yes, there will INDEED be limits imposed on just who can be a contributor. You can be a little less than or equal to, but god forbid you were BETTER than any of the three (you'll make them look bad!), or even "normal" by any means (downgrade to them/their site)! It's not that there aren't a billion contributors they can bring on board, it's that their selection at the end of the day will be a direct product of their insecurities, and most people of quality wouldn't touch and/or associate with NS if their lives depended on it.

  78. RBRBNS, while a thoughtful (?) idea, simply won't work. People don't come here (or to Baugher, for that matter) for insight alone. Humorous writing, GOOD writing, and really the skewering of those who have done nothing but essentially ask for it is the recipe. But complaining about the opinions of anonymous people or, sorry, the "regulars" here? For what? They aren't trying to shove themselves in your face or profit from you. They're stating opinions in a forum that allows it freely. I don't really get the point. It's not like with JA where you have an entire chronology laid out for you about the person. In JA's case it works against her because her behavioral patterns haven't changed in however long she's been broadcasting her life. So when she makes proclamations about how she "is", there's evidence to be presented from the past that call that into question.

  79. As a 40 something I LOVE the distress of 20 somethings as they age. I feast upon it.

    bwa ha ha har

  80. FormerGawkerEmployeeFebruary 26, 2009 at 3:40 PM

    Oh man, if only RBRBNS ... aka Jackles ... knew who was really behind this blog. It is an unwinnable game. What a dumbass.

  81. Re: ebay auctions and Jackles vs. Justine:

    ALL THREE Unsociety trollops have to sell themselves like a hunk of meat to raise the same amount of money for charity:water as iJustine raised simply by signing an iPod. This delights me.

  82. I think it's time to start RB-RB-RBNS. OK, who's with me?

  83. Also, I made my monthly trip to the MoMA today and not once did the urge strike to photograph myself.

    In fact, in all the years I've been a member of the MoMA, I have never photographed myself there.

  84. Hee, can't wait for RB RBNS. Bound to be some yuks for the taking there. Just another comedy break in my busy days!

    xoxo cupcakes

  85. Redacted NonE, I am going to start a RB-RB-RB-RBNS. Then there will be a tear in the space-time continuum and the universe will collapse in on itself and crush all of you JEALOUS HATERS WITH NO LIFE!! HA HA HA HA!

    I have another contest for your bunnies! I have a vague idea of who is behind the RBRBNS site. I will not tell you right away, but her name rhymes with Piss Thatched. The winner of my contest will get a $4 bottle of lotion and the privilege of dog sitting my mastiff for a week.

  86. Indeed, this *is* about comedy, isn't it?

    What these folks who believe we are haters lack is a sense of humour!

    This NS soap opera is better than TV. Plus, you get to sort of write the thing yourself. It is truly the best of both worlds.

  87. Auntie, not quite enough to tempt me. Would you be willing to throw in the publishing of all of our private communications on a website read by literally dozens of people?

  88. Hello Miss Matched!

    I've read your blog and I think your writing style is very frank, self-aware, and humorous. You have spoken up many times to defend yourself against criticism that much of your blog's focus (indeed, your life's focus) appears to be about finding a man to complete your life. You have also taken up the cause to defend women who are criticized by the media for their looks and weight. That is very admirable.

    However, you must realize that the place for defending Julia and Co. is on your own blog. I wouldn't visit your blog for the sole purpose of bashing you or your readers. Why are you visiting this blog for the sole purpose of bashing us?

    Other than shifting our focus from Jackles to you for a moment, you won't change anything. Is attention what you are seeking here?

    Like you, we enjoy gossip. (It's in your profile.) You do not get to choose who we gossip about. If anything, trollish and boorish behavior makes us RBNS readers even more determined to tear down your false idols.

  89. Well, said, SomeProbs. We are a part of the action and, yet, will not fall victim to it. HA HA HO HO HEE HEE HA


  90. I love reading and commenting here, whether it's about Jankles, or whether it's about people who attack me for venting on Jankles. Creative writing is stimulating, and making people laugh is a great high. Thanks everybody!!

  91. Auntie Social, I disagree. I think the name rhymes with Nary Fairy. One of her aliases got smacked down in here the other night, and it seems clear she's now got an axe to grind. How boring.

  92. Auntie Social, I think I'm going to have to reblog you reblogging me reblogging the RBNS reblog.

  93. Dance Monkey, Dance

  94. Worked late, traffic home sucked! [chicago] poured a drink and came to this.

    To the 'haters' or rather the people that complain about our 'complaining' Paul, Miss Matched? take the very basic advice of the people you come here to defend and 'take it or leave it'If you can not understand what we are doing, is it possible you also do not understand what you are doing [soooo many similarities]

    This site is fabulous - very entertaining--whoever said better than tv is what I have been thinking all along--though I do tend to have the box on in the background.

    Some Problems--you crack me up-- I enjoy reading your comments.

    Auntie Social: Absolutely loved the Piss Thatched--did not see it coming and almost lost a sip of vodka/cocktail.

    [redacted]--you had me when I saw the brackets, ok, seriously, I think you are pretty level headed and your comments are fair and succinct

    I am sure I left some-one out,

    I feel like doing a lip-dub of "I Love Everybody"

    Oh yeah, the RB-RB-RB-Reblog site [I didn't really keep track of how many] very funny.

    Need another cocktail, and maybe some dinner.

    later, sona

  95. Miss Matched

    No she isn't "just living her life." She is running a for profit business and as such she, the business, and her behavior in running it etc are fair game for public critique of all types by both the satisfied and dissatisfied.

    She's made her daily activities and herself her business and it is perfectly normal, valid, and appropriate to comment on and criticize businesses, and their owners, managers, and other representatives, especially for those businesses and people who put themselves deliberately and blatantly in the public eye.

  96. Lilly's OverbiteFebruary 27, 2009 at 10:47 AM

    You know this site never cease to entertain me. Thanks for making my day a bit brighter.

    Also I gotta admit, MissMatched's blog is way more entertaining than non-society could ever hope to be. Missmatched, you're looking at the wrong role models sweetie!

  97. Hmm, entertaining in a good way or a bad way?